Comments on: For the Love of Narnia http://dedulysses.wordpress.com/2005/12/26/for-the-love-of-narnia-refutes-pullmans-problems-with-lewis/ Cunning, Exile, and Silence Mon, 06 Jul 2009 19:22:46 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: TAJ http://dedulysses.wordpress.com/2005/12/26/for-the-love-of-narnia-refutes-pullmans-problems-with-lewis/#comment-3384 TAJ Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:55:50 +0000 https://dedulysses.wordpress.com/2005/12/26/for-the-love-of-narnia-refutes-pullmans-problems-with-lewis/#comment-3384 I JUST CANT STOP WHACHING YOU FILMS AND ALSO MY ROOM IS FULL OF NARNIA POSTER I JUST CANT STOP WHACHING YOU FILMS AND ALSO MY ROOM IS FULL OF NARNIA POSTER

]]> By: Amy http://dedulysses.wordpress.com/2005/12/26/for-the-love-of-narnia-refutes-pullmans-problems-with-lewis/#comment-3365 Amy Wed, 06 Feb 2008 04:21:15 +0000 https://dedulysses.wordpress.com/2005/12/26/for-the-love-of-narnia-refutes-pullmans-problems-with-lewis/#comment-3365 I wasn't going to post a reply to this thread until I read Jason assert that he would not read His Dark Materials because "they are children's books." Of all the claims from both sides about poisonous and narrowminded views, this is by far the worst. By dismissing children's literature merely because it <i>is</i> children's literature, you are closing yourself off from some of the most profound and universal stories and reading experiences. While I'm here, I may as well throw in my two cents on the debate at hand: I adore the Narnia books, they will always be my fondest memories of childhood reading/being read to. I briefly felt betrayed and didn't want anything to do with them when I eventually became aware of all the religious content, but now I often re-read them. To me, this shows that the religious aspects are just one layer to the story, and the importance you place on them entirely depends on your receptiveness - or opposite - to religious ideas at any given time you read them. I also love Pullman's work. At this stage in my life I am ideologically more aligned to His Dark Materials than Narnia, although I still consider the Narnian tales better examples of story-telling. While I obviously disagree with Pullman's virulent hatred of Lewis, and his assertion that there is no love to be found within his work, I do agree with many of his contentions. Primarily, accusations of racism and sexism (although how much of these are a result of cultural context at the time C.S. Lewis was writing is another question). There is a very benevolent version of colonialism at play in Narnia - at least when the plucky British are the colonial leaders. Things can only be truly right in Narnia when the citizens are ruled by Sons of Adam (and occasionally Daughters of Eve) from another country. Unless those rulers happen to come from the South Seas instead of Britain, of course. And while it is easy to cite examples of individual Calormenes who are upstanding and noble, they are quite obviously presented as exceptional to the rest of their race - Shasta is in fact from Archenland, Aravis is the opposite of everything her society expects her to be, and Emeth finds out - silly him! - that the diety he has been serving and seeking all his life is Aslan not Tash, as Tash - the god of the Calormenes - is roughly the equivalent of the Christian devil. Many racists like the individual members of another race that they know personally well enough, but still hold prejudices against the race as a group. I would not assert that Lewis himself was racist, but the books certainly demonstrate this tendency - Calormenes as a group are far nastier than the far-skinned, fair-haired Narnians. The claims of sexism are trickier, and require some nuance to accept. Once again, people cite individual examples of heroines as evidence that Lewis is not sexist - Lucy being the most common example. Lucy is indeed a heroine, but she is a passive, markedly feminine one. Her role is as a healer and nurturer (strongly symbolised in her magic cordial), and as the most faithful follower of Aslan. Indeed, she is a lovely character and these traits enable her to play key roles in triumphs throughout the books she plays a part in, but she represents the feminine ideal that Susan is punished for failing to live up to. At the other extreme, females who take active roles are characterised as being like boys - Arivis is a tomboy who contrasts to the ridiculous femininity of Lasaraleen, while in the same tale the adult Susan is said to be "not like Lucy, you know, who's as good as a man, or at any rate as good as a boy. Queen Susan is more like an ordinary grown-up lady." It's his approach to "ordinary grown-up ladies" that earn Lewis the charge of sexism. Powerful, mature women tend to be evil and manipulative. Jill is, to me, the stand-out female character of the Chronicles - and interstingly, she is a product of that repellant (to Lewis) institution that is the modern co-eductational school. I wasn’t going to post a reply to this thread until I read Jason assert that he would not read His Dark Materials because “they are children’s books.” Of all the claims from both sides about poisonous and narrowminded views, this is by far the worst. By dismissing children’s literature merely because it is children’s literature, you are closing yourself off from some of the most profound and universal stories and reading experiences.
While I’m here, I may as well throw in my two cents on the debate at hand: I adore the Narnia books, they will always be my fondest memories of childhood reading/being read to. I briefly felt betrayed and didn’t want anything to do with them when I eventually became aware of all the religious content, but now I often re-read them. To me, this shows that the religious aspects are just one layer to the story, and the importance you place on them entirely depends on your receptiveness – or opposite – to religious ideas at any given time you read them.
I also love Pullman’s work. At this stage in my life I am ideologically more aligned to His Dark Materials than Narnia, although I still consider the Narnian tales better examples of story-telling. While I obviously disagree with Pullman’s virulent hatred of Lewis, and his assertion that there is no love to be found within his work, I do agree with many of his contentions. Primarily, accusations of racism and sexism (although how much of these are a result of cultural context at the time C.S. Lewis was writing is another question). There is a very benevolent version of colonialism at play in Narnia – at least when the plucky British are the colonial leaders. Things can only be truly right in Narnia when the citizens are ruled by Sons of Adam (and occasionally Daughters of Eve) from another country. Unless those rulers happen to come from the South Seas instead of Britain, of course. And while it is easy to cite examples of individual Calormenes who are upstanding and noble, they are quite obviously presented as exceptional to the rest of their race – Shasta is in fact from Archenland, Aravis is the opposite of everything her society expects her to be, and Emeth finds out – silly him! – that the diety he has been serving and seeking all his life is Aslan not Tash, as Tash – the god of the Calormenes – is roughly the equivalent of the Christian devil. Many racists like the individual members of another race that they know personally well enough, but still hold prejudices against the race as a group. I would not assert that Lewis himself was racist, but the books certainly demonstrate this tendency – Calormenes as a group are far nastier than the far-skinned, fair-haired Narnians.
The claims of sexism are trickier, and require some nuance to accept. Once again, people cite individual examples of heroines as evidence that Lewis is not sexist – Lucy being the most common example. Lucy is indeed a heroine, but she is a passive, markedly feminine one. Her role is as a healer and nurturer (strongly symbolised in her magic cordial), and as the most faithful follower of Aslan. Indeed, she is a lovely character and these traits enable her to play key roles in triumphs throughout the books she plays a part in, but she represents the feminine ideal that Susan is punished for failing to live up to. At the other extreme, females who take active roles are characterised as being like boys – Arivis is a tomboy who contrasts to the ridiculous femininity of Lasaraleen, while in the same tale the adult Susan is said to be “not like Lucy, you know, who’s as good as a man, or at any rate as good as a boy. Queen Susan is more like an ordinary grown-up lady.” It’s his approach to “ordinary grown-up ladies” that earn Lewis the charge of sexism. Powerful, mature women tend to be evil and manipulative.
Jill is, to me, the stand-out female character of the Chronicles – and interstingly, she is a product of that repellant (to Lewis) institution that is the modern co-eductational school.

]]> By: Amy Wilson http://dedulysses.wordpress.com/2005/12/26/for-the-love-of-narnia-refutes-pullmans-problems-with-lewis/#comment-3047 Amy Wilson Wed, 26 Dec 2007 15:02:36 +0000 https://dedulysses.wordpress.com/2005/12/26/for-the-love-of-narnia-refutes-pullmans-problems-with-lewis/#comment-3047 While I have read 'The Chronicles Of Narnia' more times then I can count, I have not read 'His Dark Materials'. (I have enjoyed his other novels. I also just saw the film but that did not really show me how or why Pullman chose to tell the story of Lyra.) Thus I shall focus on Pullman's essay, the one above and of course the Narnia novels. 'The Chronicles of Narnia' holds a place in my heart, in particular 'The Horse And His Boy'. As well as my close relatives being practicing Catholics or Protestants, at the end of the day I am not a Christian. Which does suggest children have the ability to think for themselves, an issue brought up in both essays and the comments i.e. Shannon. There are numerous other examples of this. One instance being that two children can read the Narnia novels and have very different reactions. One of the other main points was whether or not these novels are propaganda. Of course if one is aware of Lewis' personal beliefs then it is pretty obvious what 'The Lion, The Witch And The Wardrobe' is an allegory for. Yet a writer's beliefs affecting his work are present in all fiction if one knows what to look for. In this case it just so happens Lewis is a Christian. Since he did not display by inflicting pain on others or himself, then can be no reason preventing him from choosing to believe in Christ. Pullman's point 'the facts are becoming less important than the legend [Lewis], and the legend, as we know, is what gets printed.' has not really been discussed by Nelson. Lewis place as a literary legend was being disputed in Pullman's essay and 'The Chronicles Of Narnia' was being used to illustrate this. Perhaps what Lewis' place in both literature and wider culture is worth examining a little more closely and from different perspectives? There have been several comments made about both Pullman's childhood and his personal state of mind i.e. he hates Narnia because he is jealous of CS Lewis and speculation concerning his grandfather being a clergyman. While interesting, disagreeing with a man outside the realms of philosophy and without primary sources does not really validate an opinion. Neil Gaiman's short story 'The Problem of Susan' from 'Fragile Things' is far better then any thought on the subject then I could articulate for anyone thinking about her. :-) While I could waffle on more, this is a rather long comment already (no doubt peppered with typos I do apologise for). All because like so many others I just love Narnia regardless of its flaws! While I have read 'The Chronicles Of Narnia' more times then I can count, I have not read 'His Dark Materials'. (I have enjoyed his other novels. I also just saw the film but that did not really show me how or why Pullman chose to tell the story of Lyra.) Thus I shall focus on Pullman's essay, the one above and of course the Narnia novels. 'The Chronicles of Narnia' holds a place in my heart, in particular 'The Horse And His Boy'. As well as my close relatives being practicing Catholics or Protestants, at the end of the day I am not a Christian. Which does suggest children have the ability to think for themselves, an issue brought up in both essays and the comments i.e. Shannon. There are numerous other examples of this. One instance being that two children can read the Narnia novels and have very different reactions. One of the other main points was whether or not these novels are propaganda. Of course if one is aware of Lewis' personal beliefs then it is pretty obvious what 'The Lion, The Witch And The Wardrobe' is an allegory for. Yet a writer's beliefs affecting his work are present in all fiction if one knows what to look for. In this case it just so happens Lewis is a Christian. Since he did not display by inflicting pain on others or himself, then can be no reason preventing him from choosing to believe in Christ. Pullman's point 'the facts are becoming less important than the legend [Lewis], and the legend, as we know, is what gets printed.' has not really been discussed by Nelson. Lewis place as a literary legend was being disputed in Pullman's essay and 'The Chronicles Of Narnia' was being used to illustrate this. Perhaps Lewis as a literary figure and how justified this is, would be worth examining a little more closely and from different perspectives? There have been several comments made about both Pullman's childhood and his personal state of mind i.e. he hates Narnia because he is jealous of CS Lewis and speculation concerning his grandfather being a clergyman. While interesting, disagreeing with a man outside the realms of philosophy and without primary sources does not really validate an opinion. Neil Gaiman's short story 'The Problem of Susan' from 'Fragile Things' is far better then any thought on the subject then I could articulate for anyone thinking about her. :-) While I could waffle on more, this is a rather long comment already (no doubt peppered with typos I do apologise for). All because like so many others I just love Narnia regardless of its flaws! While I have read ‘The Chronicles Of Narnia’ more times then I can count, I have not read ‘His Dark Materials’. (I have enjoyed his other novels. I also just saw the film but that did not really show me how or why Pullman chose to tell the story of Lyra.) Thus I shall focus on Pullman’s essay, the one above and of course the Narnia novels.
‘The Chronicles of Narnia’ holds a place in my heart, in particular ‘The Horse And His Boy’. As well as my close relatives being practicing Catholics or Protestants, at the end of the day I am not a Christian. Which does suggest children have the ability to think for themselves, an issue brought up in both essays and the comments i.e. Shannon. There are numerous other examples of this. One instance being that two children can read the Narnia novels and have very different reactions.
One of the other main points was whether or not these novels are propaganda. Of course if one is aware of Lewis’ personal beliefs then it is pretty obvious what ‘The Lion, The Witch And The Wardrobe’ is an allegory for. Yet a writer’s beliefs affecting his work are present in all fiction if one knows what to look for. In this case it just so happens Lewis is a Christian. Since he did not display by inflicting pain on others or himself, then can be no reason preventing him from choosing to believe in Christ.
Pullman’s point ‘the facts are becoming less important than the legend [Lewis], and the legend, as we know, is what gets printed.’ has not really been discussed by Nelson. Lewis place as a literary legend was being disputed in Pullman’s essay and ‘The Chronicles Of Narnia’ was being used to illustrate this. Perhaps what Lewis’ place in both literature and wider culture is worth examining a little more closely and from different perspectives?
There have been several comments made about both Pullman’s childhood and his personal state of mind i.e. he hates Narnia because he is jealous of CS Lewis and speculation concerning his grandfather being a clergyman. While interesting, disagreeing with a man outside the realms of philosophy and without primary sources does not really validate an opinion.
Neil Gaiman’s short story ‘The Problem of Susan’ from ‘Fragile Things’ is far better then any thought on the subject then I could articulate for anyone thinking about her. :-)
While I could waffle on more, this is a rather long comment already (no doubt peppered with typos I do apologise for). All because like so many others I just love Narnia regardless of its flaws! While I have read ‘The Chronicles Of Narnia’ more times then I can count, I have not read ‘His Dark Materials’. (I have enjoyed his other novels. I also just saw the film but that did not really show me how or why Pullman chose to tell the story of Lyra.) Thus I shall focus on Pullman’s essay, the one above and of course the Narnia novels.
‘The Chronicles of Narnia’ holds a place in my heart, in particular ‘The Horse And His Boy’. As well as my close relatives being practicing Catholics or Protestants, at the end of the day I am not a Christian. Which does suggest children have the ability to think for themselves, an issue brought up in both essays and the comments i.e. Shannon. There are numerous other examples of this. One instance being that two children can read the Narnia novels and have very different reactions.
One of the other main points was whether or not these novels are propaganda. Of course if one is aware of Lewis’ personal beliefs then it is pretty obvious what ‘The Lion, The Witch And The Wardrobe’ is an allegory for. Yet a writer’s beliefs affecting his work are present in all fiction if one knows what to look for. In this case it just so happens Lewis is a Christian. Since he did not display by inflicting pain on others or himself, then can be no reason preventing him from choosing to believe in Christ.
Pullman’s point ‘the facts are becoming less important than the legend [Lewis], and the legend, as we know, is what gets printed.’ has not really been discussed by Nelson. Lewis place as a literary legend was being disputed in Pullman’s essay and ‘The Chronicles Of Narnia’ was being used to illustrate this. Perhaps Lewis as a literary figure and how justified this is, would be worth examining a little more closely and from different perspectives?
There have been several comments made about both Pullman’s childhood and his personal state of mind i.e. he hates Narnia because he is jealous of CS Lewis and speculation concerning his grandfather being a clergyman. While interesting, disagreeing with a man outside the realms of philosophy and without primary sources does not really validate an opinion.
Neil Gaiman’s short story ‘The Problem of Susan’ from ‘Fragile Things’ is far better then any thought on the subject then I could articulate for anyone thinking about her. :-)
While I could waffle on more, this is a rather long comment already (no doubt peppered with typos I do apologise for). All because like so many others I just love Narnia regardless of its flaws!

]]> By: Allan http://dedulysses.wordpress.com/2005/12/26/for-the-love-of-narnia-refutes-pullmans-problems-with-lewis/#comment-3026 Allan Mon, 24 Dec 2007 22:01:19 +0000 https://dedulysses.wordpress.com/2005/12/26/for-the-love-of-narnia-refutes-pullmans-problems-with-lewis/#comment-3026 No matter what everyone says, I love Narnia. haha. ~~~~~~~~~ same here man!:) No matter what everyone says, I love Narnia. haha.
~~~~~~~~~

same here man!:)

]]> By: Naomi http://dedulysses.wordpress.com/2005/12/26/for-the-love-of-narnia-refutes-pullmans-problems-with-lewis/#comment-2987 Naomi Fri, 21 Dec 2007 07:19:13 +0000 https://dedulysses.wordpress.com/2005/12/26/for-the-love-of-narnia-refutes-pullmans-problems-with-lewis/#comment-2987 I find it fascinating that after reading Pullman's claims in regards to Narnia, most of his complaints seem to be more of a reflection of his own work then the Chronicles of Narnia. For a writer he seems quite dense when it comes to understanding another writer's work, especially keeping in mind that thousands of children across the world have been able to recognize the basic values of love and friendship in the Narnia series, which have somehow evaded him. His comments seemed more stemmed from bitterness and jealousy then realistic concern. Anyone who has read Narnia in the way that C.S. Lewis clearly intended it to be understood can recognize those qualities, and allow it to affect them for the rest of their lives in a postive manner; despite the prejudice that some might create when it is successful 'despite' it being Christian. I find it fascinating that after reading Pullman’s claims in regards to Narnia, most of his complaints seem to be more of a reflection of his own work then the Chronicles of Narnia. For a writer he seems quite dense when it comes to understanding another writer’s work, especially keeping in mind that thousands of children across the world have been able to recognize the basic values of love and friendship in the Narnia series, which have somehow evaded him. His comments seemed more stemmed from bitterness and jealousy then realistic concern. Anyone who has read Narnia in the way that C.S. Lewis clearly intended it to be understood can recognize those qualities, and allow it to affect them for the rest of their lives in a postive manner; despite the prejudice that some might create when it is successful ‘despite’ it being Christian.

]]> By: Francis http://dedulysses.wordpress.com/2005/12/26/for-the-love-of-narnia-refutes-pullmans-problems-with-lewis/#comment-2975 Francis Thu, 20 Dec 2007 06:34:58 +0000 https://dedulysses.wordpress.com/2005/12/26/for-the-love-of-narnia-refutes-pullmans-problems-with-lewis/#comment-2975 No matter what everyone says, I love Narnia. haha. No matter what everyone says, I love Narnia. haha.

]]> By: Ian http://dedulysses.wordpress.com/2005/12/26/for-the-love-of-narnia-refutes-pullmans-problems-with-lewis/#comment-2962 Ian Wed, 19 Dec 2007 02:02:10 +0000 https://dedulysses.wordpress.com/2005/12/26/for-the-love-of-narnia-refutes-pullmans-problems-with-lewis/#comment-2962 C.S. Lewis is a brilliant man. Please do try to read his book "Mere Christianity". You will see his mind and heart protecting what he loves most, God, with eloquence, wit and tact. C.S. Lewis is a brilliant man. Please do try to read his book “Mere Christianity”. You will see his mind and heart protecting what he loves most, God, with eloquence, wit and tact.

]]> By: Derel http://dedulysses.wordpress.com/2005/12/26/for-the-love-of-narnia-refutes-pullmans-problems-with-lewis/#comment-2869 Derel Thu, 13 Dec 2007 00:17:48 +0000 https://dedulysses.wordpress.com/2005/12/26/for-the-love-of-narnia-refutes-pullmans-problems-with-lewis/#comment-2869 Please stop quoting the Bible. It says many things in one area and then the opposite in another. It's not difficult to find quotes that back your arguments. "I agree with Natasha, why does Philip Pullman see an anti-christian message as free speech and a christian one so wrong." ~Someone above Stop reading incorrectly. Pullman states that he dislikes the books because they use Christianity to sell his books and everything, but yet he does things in it that are very much against the bible. That is his problem with the 'Christian message' Lewis is giving. Please stop quoting the Bible. It says many things in one area and then the opposite in another. It’s not difficult to find quotes that back your arguments.

“I agree with Natasha, why does Philip Pullman see an anti-christian message as free speech and a christian one so wrong.” ~Someone above
Stop reading incorrectly. Pullman states that he dislikes the books because they use Christianity to sell his books and everything, but yet he does things in it that are very much against the bible. That is his problem with the ‘Christian message’ Lewis is giving.

]]> By: Allan http://dedulysses.wordpress.com/2005/12/26/for-the-love-of-narnia-refutes-pullmans-problems-with-lewis/#comment-2849 Allan Mon, 10 Dec 2007 22:14:25 +0000 https://dedulysses.wordpress.com/2005/12/26/for-the-love-of-narnia-refutes-pullmans-problems-with-lewis/#comment-2849 Oh we have a copy catter here. Mr Eddy your assertion has already been refuted a lot of times. If you are referring to "The Christ Conspiracy" of Acharya S. Bob Price, an atheist scholar called her book "sophomoric." He also commented that her book is "a random bag of (mainly recycled) eccentricities, some few of them worth considering, most dangerously shaky, many outright looney." Oh we have a copy catter here. Mr Eddy your assertion has already been refuted a lot of times. If you are referring to “The Christ Conspiracy” of Acharya S. Bob Price, an atheist scholar called her book “sophomoric.” He also commented that her book is “a random bag of (mainly recycled) eccentricities, some few of them worth considering, most dangerously shaky, many outright looney.”

]]> By: Jason http://dedulysses.wordpress.com/2005/12/26/for-the-love-of-narnia-refutes-pullmans-problems-with-lewis/#comment-2848 Jason Mon, 10 Dec 2007 21:59:22 +0000 https://dedulysses.wordpress.com/2005/12/26/for-the-love-of-narnia-refutes-pullmans-problems-with-lewis/#comment-2848 #28.Yes... because Christianity has died. >_> Christ died, but we all know that story hopefully. #27. It's been a while since I read these books.. ugh.. 11 years ago... wow I am old... But still Aslan is a metaphor for Jesus, as in being a lion as opposed to being named Jesus and being an 33 year old man. While Pullman names the antagonist God, and in the end he's an old man. #28.Yes… because Christianity has died. >_>
Christ died, but we all know that story hopefully.

#27. It’s been a while since I read these books.. ugh.. 11 years ago… wow I am old… But still Aslan is a metaphor for Jesus, as in being a lion as opposed to being named Jesus and being an 33 year old man.

While Pullman names the antagonist God, and in the end he’s an old man.

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